Granted that we can pretty much enter anything into our log books as long as
we are willing to sign the true and accurate caveat at the bottom of the
page.

Here's a hypothetical scenario. CJ gets an invitation to go for a ride in
ER's rotary wing machine for a 30 minute hop around the town. CJ is PP ASEL
without a helo endorsement. ER is fully qualified to fly the machine but
does NOT have a CFI cert. CJ asks ER to 'sign' his log book showing that he
did a 30 minute flight in NXXXX. No entry is made to show any dual, nor PIC
time.

So what's the point? I suppose the entry tallies up another 30 minutes in
the total time column. I'd have another hundred hours in my log book if I'd
tallied up the number of times I sat in the front seat and never touched the
controls. How about riding in the back seat? Or seat 18C on Southwest from
LAX to Phoenix?

N2310D wrote:
>
> Here's a hypothetical scenario. CJ gets an invitation to go for a ride in
> ER's rotary wing machine for a 30 minute hop around the town. CJ is PP ASEL
> without a helo endorsement. ER is fully qualified to fly the machine but
> does NOT have a CFI cert.

There's nothing for CJ to log.

> CJ asks ER to 'sign' his log book showing that he
> did a 30 minute flight in NXXXX. No entry is made to show any dual, nor PIC
> time.

CJ's signature is meaningless. ER could just as easily put the time in
his logbook and leave it at that. The time could not be counted towards
anything I'm aware of (I don't know if it even counts as total time, or
the "total time" that insurance companies care about). CJ's signature
doesn't validate anything.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
> The time could not be counted towards
> anything I'm aware of (I don't know if it even counts as total time, or
> the "total time" that insurance companies care about).

I go the initials wrong in my last post, but agree with Jose.

ER took a helicopter _ride_. You don't log rides, as they don't mean
anything, and they don't count toward any time.

ER wasn't legally receiving dual, he isn't qualified to be a safety
pilot if CJ was under the hood (wrong category & class), and he isn't
qualified to log PIC. Therefore there is nothing than can be logged in
any time column of a legal logbook.

Perhaps he could have someone take a nice commemorative picture of him
(business opportunity for the OP? <G>) in the heli, and have CJ sign it!
<G>

"N2310D" > wrote in message
news:cTYbh.11$QC.8@trnddc02...
> Granted that we can pretty much enter anything into our log books as long
> as we are willing to sign the true and accurate caveat at the bottom of
> the page.

There is no requirement to sign the logbook as "true and accurate", never
mind to do so on each page.

> [...]
> So what's the point? I suppose the entry tallies up another 30 minutes in
> the total time column. I'd have another hundred hours in my log book if
> I'd tallied up the number of times I sat in the front seat and never
> touched the controls. How about riding in the back seat? Or seat 18C on
> Southwest from LAX to Phoenix?

"Total time" is generally used to track total *loggable* time. If the time
is not otherwise loggable for other reasons, most pilots would not include
it under "total time".

So, what's the point? None. It's a waste of time. Even worse, the pilot
can't use that "total time" number for any regulatory purpose if they
pollute it by including flights that aren't actually loggable. Logging time
like that just makes things harder.

Pete

First of all, I agree that it seems pointless for CJ to put that kind of
entry into his log book. He opines that it counts for total time even if
none of it was PIC or instruction -- he thinks of it as "flight experience."
Having ER 'sign' the entry was more of a momento.

=====

Sorry, Barry, you either misread the original post or got confused by Jose's
response. CJ was a passenger. ER was the helo pilot.

=====

Pete, the thing about the signature on each page comes from looking at my
log book. At the bottom of the left page is a block that reads (quoting):

"I certify that the statements made by me on this form are true.
Pilot's Signature______________________________"

Now, I can't find anything in the FARs 61.51 or 61.59 to require that
signature, but nonetheless the space is provided for it in my log.

"N2310D" > wrote in message
news:dK%bh.130$lb1.32@trnddc05...
> [...]
> Pete, the thing about the signature on each page comes from looking at my
> log book. At the bottom of the left page is a block that reads (quoting):
>
> "I certify that the statements made by me on this form are true.
> Pilot's Signature______________________________"
>
> Now, I can't find anything in the FARs 61.51 or 61.59 to require that
> signature, but nonetheless the space is provided for it in my log.

Mine as well. It's a common inclusion in the usual premade logbooks one can
buy from a pilot shop. But there's no legal requirement that I sign it.

Pete

> Logbooks are nothing more than records of whatever the pilot
> wants to record.

Well, no. They are also "compensation". (just to muddy the waters).

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> It's not
> the logbook that's compensation, it's the time itself - the
> ability to meet some requirement for flight experience that
> is a benefit (seeking a higher rating, typically).

So the FAA said that time you did not log counts as compensation? There
was such a case?

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> "Peter Duniho" > wrote:
>
>>There is no requirement to sign the logbook as "true and accurate", never
>>mind to do so on each page.
>
> I am also not aware of any such requirement, but there is
> 61.59 prohibiting false entries, and I have had DPEs ask me
> to sign all the logbook pages before the flight test. I
> certainly was not going to argue with him :-)

If an examiner were to ask me to make sure each and every page in my logbook
were signed, I would go ahead and comply too. After all, it's a simple
enough request and if that's what he wants me to spend my time during the
oral examination doing, fine by me. But I would certainly take the moment
to point out the lack of a legal requirement to do so.

With any of the examiners I've dealt with so far, one of two things would
happen: the examiner would attempt to find the legal requirement and fail to
do so, promising to either find it later and let me know, or simply
acknowledge that perhaps it's not required after all; *or*, they would show
me the legal requirement, proving me wrong and educating me in the process.

It hasn't actually come up yet, so I don't know what the actual outcome
would be. I do know that all of the examiners I've flown with are
noticeably more knowledgeable than I am with respect to aviation, and
especially with respect to regulatory esoterica. I doubt that there is a
regulation requiring the logbook pages to be signed, but if there is one,
one very effective way to learn about it would be to challenge an examiner
on the topic.

Not all examiners are great, I assume. I've had the good fortune to have
only good examiners to fly with. And none of the good examiners I've flown
with would have any trouble with an applicant questioning the examiner,
provided the applicant showed a good reason to believe what they did. Even
if the applicant turns out to be wrong (or perhaps especially if...I find
examiners love being able to point out gaps in the applicant's knowledge,
and that's a good thing :) ).

Pete

>
> So what's the point? I suppose the entry tallies up another 30 minutes in
> the total time column. I'd have another hundred hours in my log book if I'd
> tallied up the number of times I sat in the front seat and never touched the
> controls. How about riding in the back seat? Or seat 18C on Southwest from
> LAX to Phoenix?

You can log what you want as long as it's not fraudulent. Many people
keep their logbooks as sort of a "flying diary" and the remarks are like
"Flew out to Bubbas for Lunch with Bobby and Earl."

I know at least one person who collects famous aviator autographs in
his logbook.

You're right, it counts for nothing.